Pub #brownchem: @alpha137
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*** LizK (gloworm4@200-148-238.ipt.aol.com) has joined channel #brownchem
LizK: HEllo, Sorry I'm late.
alpha137: Hello, how is your driving instructor?
LizK: Oh, he
LizK: is fine, he just was late because he had to get information from the insurance company and stuff like that
alpha137: OK. The thing from the older text that I put on the mIRC page asks for costs for not implementing the clean air act. Thought about those?
LizK: Yes, like, what price would I and the country be willing to pay to have cleaner air- a question of priorities
LizK: To me, clean air is important, for health reasons, and
alpha137: Yes, but can we get specific?
alpha137: and?
LizK: and a "moral oneas well, it seems wrong to pollute, and it sickens
me
LizK: But most people dom't feel that way, and wouldn't be willing to trade in
the conveinicne of thier car for the knowledge that the earth will be a little bit
cleaner
LizK: Nor for that matter, am I completely willing to either
alpha137: Well, I certainly like the convenience of having a car filled with tennis gear so that I might play at a moments notice.
alpha137: Also, there is public transportation I could take (and have), but it only runs once in the morning and once in the evening.
LizK: So, in my opinion, to get people to give up any convineince or somethhing they like there must be some incentive- more than teh theoretical reason that it helps the earth
LizK: And i think that if there were a better public transportation system more people would use it
alpha137: That is what I am trying to get at. Don't we need an economic analysis?
LizK: For ex. the washington Metro system is horrible
LizK: Yes
alpha137: I mentioned I had lunch with some economic profs last week and this topic come up.
LizK: Either an alternative must be found that is almost as good as whatever is to be given up, or there must be some other incentive, at least thats what i thingk
alpha137: Government regulations are an incentive, right?
LizK: I know, you said you were going to lunch with some professors, ther was an article about the similarities in biology and economics
alpha137: Well, both biology and economics are complicated.
LizK: Yes, gov. regs incentive to not do something, but positive reinforcment is better than punishment, though both will work- like this psychology stuff i learned
alpha137: It turns out, according to my econ friends, that environmental costs are NOT taken into account in determining economic growth, gnp, etc.
alpha137: They simply do not do it. So how can governments really know where they are economically?
LizK: Well, thats not very good
alpha137: Have you heard of the Arial Sea in Russia?
LizK: They need to take this stuff into account o
LizK: No, sorry, I've heard of the caspian one though
LizK: Let me guess, its really polluted and now they can't figure out why they are having to spend all this moneyu
alpha137: I am not sure what is happening to the Caspian Sea, but the Arial (sp?) is dead as a door nail.
LizK: to make it better because its all gross, and their profit is going down
alpha137: Your guess is not quite right, it is more than polluted and there is no amount of money that will fix it.
LizK: That
LizK: s is too bad, what happened to it?
alpha137: It is the tragedy of the commons, of course.
LizK: How does a sea die?
LizK: Is there no water left?
alpha137: Right, no water to speak of and what remains is full of salts so that there is no life.
alpha137: It is a failure of the Soviet government!
LizK: THat is horrible, and ther is no way to make it better
alpha137: Nope, it is gone for good I think.
LizK: Yes, well the Soviet gov. didn't seem to care too much about the environment
alpha137: The soviets found that they could leach uranium from soil with sulfuric acid.
LizK: So now the soil is all polluted with sulful
LizK: sulfur
alpha137: So naturally they pours uncountable amounts of that acid over vast tracts of land.
alpha137: poured that is.
LizK: Doesn't that ruin the ground, so that land isn't usable
alpha137: Yes, that land is unsuitable for use.
LizK: AWere people living on that land?
alpha137: This is an environmental cost and I would think that economists would want to take these costs into account. But they do not!
LizK: Why not?
alpha137: I am not sure that people live on that land.
alpha137: I do not know why economists do not keep track of such things. Here is an important economic problem to solve and they should deal with it.
LizK: But if they are aware of this, and know its a problem, why don't they do something about it?
alpha137: In the former soviet union these environmental disasters have real economic costs that are a part of the collapse of the place.
alpha137: In one of the articles about China there were similar situations as I recall.
LizK: And now many of the regions are so polluted that they can't be used anymore
LizK: Yes,
alpha137: I do not know how many regions are so polluted that they are unfit for humans.
alpha137: Is there an accounting anywhere??
LizK: NoT AS much un fit for humans but the whole ecosystem has changed because aniomals and plant's habitats have changed and things like that
LizK: IF there isn't an accounting then it looks like the wor;d is going to run into some trouble later on.
alpha137: Sure.
LizK: BUt what about all those environmental conferences that are being held? do they do any good at all?
alpha137: In this country we have people argueing before congress and we do get things passed like the clean air act and the clean water act.
alpha137: We do have these world environmental conferences.
LizK: Thats true, and that is definitely progress
alpha137: Why do politicians and world leaders do anything?
LizK: But in one article it said that they kept stretching these"deadlines" because no one was mmeting them
LizK: To please the peole
LizK: people
LizK: And maybe if they think that there really is a problem
LizK: By "to please the people" I meant, to get votes.
LizK: And money too
alpha137: So, environmentalists can publicize issues and convince people and they will convince their polliticians. Is that it?
LizK: I was thinking more along the lines of the environmentalists can make enough people care about an isssue so that the politicians will want to back that issue to stay in office, or get in office
alpha137: On the other side there may be an industry that sees these environmental ideas as lost profits for little quality gain. They may spend large sums of money
alpha137: to convince the public of the opposite view.
alpha137: Who will succeed?
LizK: Yes, I think its who ever either controls more money or more votes
LizK: A perfect analogy is the tabacco battle
alpha137: Yes it is.
LizK: The southern reps. and senators will be more likely to back a pro-tabbaco bill because their constituents grow the tabbacco and make monet off of it, and the politicians want the tabbacco money, and the votes
alpha137: Where I was taking this is to say that quantitative analysis (science) would be a powerful arguement in environmental and health issues.
alpha137: But then you bring up tobacco!
LizK: Yes, but as you see, in the tobacco fight, science isn't playing too big a role!
LizK: And I'm afraid that is how it might be with the environmetn
alpha137: Perhaps you are right, but we do have the clean air act.
alpha137: Even in the tobacco fight we need the numbers.
LizK: that is true, and there are some major differences between the environment and tobacco, but the idea is kind of the same
LizK: I think it all comes down to what the people want and care about
alpha137: And we need the biology and the molecular biology of the harmfull effects of tobacco.
LizK: MOre scientific info might make people more aware and that might cause them to care mor
LizK: e\
alpha137: I think that the fact that the smoking population has dropped to 25% or so is a result of the science and the public education.
LizK: I agree, that's really good, and it does show how much educating the public can do to change things
alpha137: It may also be true that of the 25% of the population that smoke a good fraction are the poor, and young women.
LizK: And there are all sorts of socioeconomic consequences that go along with that
alpha137: Young women no doubt because of target advertizing.
LizK: Definitely like the Virginia Slims ads
alpha137: And african americans also because of educational level and targeted advertizing.
LizK: But it all comes down to public awareness and priorities
alpha137: It seems to me that we do need science, then education using the results, etc.
LizK: I agree
LizK: And I do think that the more people know, the more they are enabled to do
alpha137: Now I would like to get back to some hard science. First, to finish up some discussion of fuel cells and their use. Second to discuss acid rain and then lets get to the stratosphere and global warming. OK?
LizK: So more awareness of the scientific facts means more action and real quantitative reasults
LizK: Ok
alpha137: To your last statement. I agree.
LizK: so back to chemistry
alpha137: Here is the idea. In certain places there really are clean air problems. LA is a good example.
LizK: YEs, but even that is getting better
LizK: We have a problem here too, to day is a COde Orange
LizK: Day
alpha137: To meet the clean air act we need to reduce auto emissions (that is the reason it is getting better).
alpha137: One way to reduce emissions is to have a car that is more efficient.
alpha137: The electric car is yet another idea.
LizK: True, and fuel cells are a way to do that
alpha137: Right, fuel cells may help.
LizK: What ever happened to the electric car,
alpha137: Why would the electric car improve pollution?
LizK: When I was littler they said things like "BY the year 2000 everyone will be driving electreinc cars" its not happening
alpha137: By the way, the fuel cell is electric in some sense.
LizK: It would improve pollution because the engine would be more efficient
LizK: and wouln;t burn hydrocarbons
alpha137: But the electric car does need energy. Where does that energy come from?
LizK: Wouldn't it come from being recharged (like you plug it into your house) but the energy/electricity coming into your house is usually made at a power plant by burning fossile fuels and polluting that way
alpha137: Right. So what would be the advantage?
LizK: So it is like adding steps to an equation
LizK: Maybe the pwr plant is more efficient
LizK: Gets more electricity per gram burned than your car?
alpha137: Well, the power plant has all the pollution in one place.
LizK: So only that area becomes polluted?
LizK: And wouldn't it spread ?
LizK: Or can they deal with it there is what wyou mnean-
alpha137: That power plant has to have pollution controls or there is no point.
LizK: like a big catylitic converter
alpha137: And so forth.
LizK: YEs, so why don't we have electric cars now?
alpha137: Put all the engineering in to that plant.
alpha137: We do not have electric cars yet for several reasons. One is that gas is so cheap as you pointed out earlier.
alpha137: Another has to do with batteries.
LizK: They could tax gas
alpha137: I was talking to a scientist, Ed Clark, who was one of the founders of the semiconductor industry in the world. He has an interest in solar cars.
LizK: What does he suggest?
alpha137: Dr. Clark, a very interesting man, graduated from Brown in 1946. Also got his PhD here. Anyway, he says that hybrid cars, both electric and hydrocarbon will work well.
LizK: when I said"They could tax gas" I knew that wasn't really a feaseable option because it would be so very unppopular
LizK: And how would they work?
LizK: Like a battery and an engine both>
alpha137: A hybrid car would have a gasoline engine, and electric motors and batteries (fuel cells too?). Breaking is by electromagnetic coils that slow the car and recharge the battery. Stuff like that.
LizK: I see, the coils is a good idea
alpha137: When you go down a hill the battery may be recharged.
LizK: at least, it makes sense to me
alpha137: Clark figures 100 miles per gallon is easy to attain.
LizK: Wow!
LizK: Have they made any yet?
alpha137: That would make a big dent in automobile air pollution. We could use these and export the technology to the developing world.
alpha137: Prototypes only.
LizK: YEs, and then that would cut their pollution, and maybe they could even bypass completely the regular car stage
alpha137: The only way we will use these, since gas is so cheap, is because of environmental regulations.
LizK: Yes, that is true, but with regulations like the clean air act it is a good start,
LizK: And the more people know about the problems and solutions the better
alpha137: Right. Seems like a good scheme for the developing countries and a way we can be of help and not mess up economic development.
LizK: Yes, and that might ease some of the bitter feelings toward developed nations
alpha137: Right.
alpha137: So now we need to do some science.
LizK: Exactly
alpha137: In the text some where, probably towards the back, there is something on fuel cells.
alpha137: You might take a look.
LizK: I'm there
alpha137: Think you can understant it?
alpha137: understand that is.
LizK: Yes, I vaguely remember this from reg. chem, it talked about the hydrogen fuel cell and things like that
alpha137: OK. Usually, people use the word fuel cell when talking about chemicals like hydrogen, etc. brought together in some kind of cell and they get electrical work out.
LizK: Ok
alpha137: They use the word battery when they have inorganic chemicals. But it all seems the same to me.
LizK: I was wondering what the difference was
alpha137: If we can figure a way to make a battery using, say, methane on one side of a cell and oxygen on another and get electricity out then we have a fuel cell.
LizK: I see
alpha137: So lets think that we have methane gas on one side of a membrane and oxygen on the other side.
LizK: Ok
alpha137: On the methane side of this membrane we are going to oxidize methane.
LizK: And reduce oxygen on the other
alpha137: Right. So we want to write down a reaction with methane that involves electrons.
LizK: OH, i don't like these
alpha137: We will call this a half reaction because with a similar reaction with oxygen when added together we will burn methane.
alpha137: Half reactions are arbitrary!!
LizK: Yes,
alpha137: Chemistry teachers make a big deal over them, but they can be anything you want so long as you do not violate conservation of matter and charge.
alpha137: The cleaver part is to make the membrane that will make the half reaction occur.
alpha137: My proposal is to make a fuel cell driven car using methane gas as the fuel.
LizK: How do you know what will make the reaction run?
alpha137: We have to find out. We will have to calculate the free energy and we will have to discuss the efficiency.
alpha137: First, we need the so called half reaction. Any idea how to get one using methane?
alpha137: Remember, on the other side there is another membrane with an oxygen half reaction.
LizK: Don't you look at this table stating all these half reactions and find the two - the one that is closest to Li will be oxidized and then you balance the equatuion?
alpha137: This is going to be a home work problem. Write the chemical equation for the combustion of methane. Balanced of course. And yes you can look at electrochemical tables.
LizK: Ok, i found the table
alpha137: Remember a chemical equation IS an equation.
alpha137: Take that combustion of methane equation and SUBTRACT the oxygen half reaction from the electrochemical tables, or from the discussion in the text.
LizK: You know, I don't think this table has the equation for methane
alpha137: You will have left a methane half reaction with electrons and all
alpha137: Right, it does not have the equation for methane. That is the point of this problem. We want methane because we have a use for it.
LizK: I think I'm wrong about all this, Im thinking of trying to figure out how many volts a reaction will yeild
alpha137: We want those volts!
LizK: Ok, so I am looking for the methane half reaction
LizK: I remember this, I jsut split up the regular equation into two parts and then balance them with the electrons etc.
alpha137: You have those volts for the oxygen reaction: O_2(g) + 2H_2O(l) + 4e^- -> 4OH^-(aq), V = 0.40 volts
LizK: I have tjat much
alpha137: You do not have the volts for the methane part.
LizK: I see, I was just a little confused there, but I understand now,
LizK: Ok
LizK: Its all good
alpha137: Do you remember a possible connection between volts and some thermodynamic quantity?
alpha137: We discussed.
LizK: Yes, wouldn't it be between volts and free energy
alpha137: There was a formula.
LizK: I don't rememer the formula exactly G=W-V?
alpha137: Yes, exactly, volts and free energy. Can you write down the free energy change for the combustion of methane?
LizK: I can do that- I already did
LizK: That was homework from a few nights ago.
alpha137: Change in G = -(number of moles of electrons taking part)(96,000 coul/mol)*V
alpha137: So, if you know change in G and the other stuff you can get V for the combustion of methane. You get the number of moles of electrons from the half reaction.
alpha137: The half reaction is being defined by the use of oxygen in this case. Right?
LizK: I see, so I already have the answer I just need to find it
LizK: Yes, half reaction with oxygen
alpha137: Your task is to get the V for the overall combustion of methane. Find the half reaction for methane by subtracting the oxygen half reaction and find the voltage for the methane half reaction. OK?
LizK: OK
LizK: I can do that
alpha137: That methane voltage is what we are going to use to run the elctric motor in our electric car!
LizK: I see, so that is how free energy can be measuredBUt, I better get going now because I'm supposed to be somewhere at 2:30
alpha137: OK, see you when?
LizK: So I'll see you tommorow at 9:30
LizK: IF thats ok with you
alpha137: OK, bye
LizK: Bye, and thank you
*** Signoff: LizK (Leaving)